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069 – Learn about Foundations of Leadership

As Our Community Listens, transitions into the Chapman Foundation for Caring Communities, this podcast will continue to be a tool to refresh the teachings of the communication skills course. It will also allow us to learn more about the people inside the organization and the businesses we partner with.

In this discussion, Adam talks with facilitators Jonathan Trotter and Jules Maloney about the new training titled Foundations of Leadership.

AI-generated dictation of the podcast audio

Please note that this transcription was completed using AI software.  Occasionally, unanticipated grammatical, syntax, homophones, and other interpretive errors are inadvertently transcribed by the software. Please excuse any errors that have escaped final proofreading.

Introduction 0:07
Welcome to the listen first podcast brought to you by the Chapman foundation for caring communities. Our vision and mission is to strengthen relationships and build stronger communities through listening, leadership, care and service to create a truly human connection. Learn and partner with us as we imagine a society in which people care about each other. And listen first.

Adam Salgat 0:38
Welcome to the listen first podcast. I’m your host, Adam Salgat. As our community listens transitions into the champion foundation for caring communities. This podcast will continue to be a tool to refresh the teachings of the communication skills course. It will also allow us to learn more about the people inside the organization and the businesses we partner with. In today’s episode, we talk with facilitators Jonathan Trotter and Jules Maloney. Jules is leading a new class with CFCC called Foundations of Leadership. In the conversation, we talk about what it means to be a leader, and what types of people should be interested in this new course.

Hello, thanks, Jules. And Jonathan, thank you both for joining the podcast. Jonathan. I’m so happy that you’re going to be sidekick here on many of the podcasts moving forward. I’m excited for that. I shouldn’t say sidekick. Really, you’re like a, like a co superhero co lead superhero with me here on the podcast. Welcome. And how’s your day been?

Speaker 3 1:47
It’s been awesome. And thank you for allowing me to be your sidekick for some of these. It’s fantastic opportunity and a privilege.

Adam Salgat 1:54
I’ll I guess I’ll keep it a sidekick for now. We’ll go with that, I guess. And Jules, thanks so much for joining us again on the podcast. How you doing today.

Jules Maloney 2:03
I’m doing great. The weather’s beautiful here in Wisconsin. And I’m excited to be here with you two, who are doing a really wonderful job bringing the information forward of the work that we’re doing to folks who are looking to get connected.

Adam Salgat 2:16
Thanks so much. Yeah, we’re excited here to get started with this new podcast name the listen first podcast brought to you by Chapman foundation for caring communities. And today’s topic, is focusing around a new area for the organization called Foundations of Leadership. Jules, why don’t you lead us off and tell us a little bit about Foundations of Leadership?

Jules Maloney 2:39
Absolutely. Well, this really was inspired by Bob Chapman’s video, the leadership crisis. And so taking from some of the materials that we have, we wanted to really reach out with a smaller specific training directed towards folks in the world of leadership. And I’ll talk more about what we mean by folks in the world of leadership to bring in some of our specific skills and highlight them a little bit differently. So we have different ways in which the series can be run. But generally, we have three different sessions with key concepts that flow into each other. And then we give an opportunity for folks at the end of that to process what they’ve learned, and to get clarification and get support with skilled trained facilitators to help them dig a little deeper and apply it to their world.

Adam Salgat 3:29
Tell me a little bit about how this differs from what is now the OCL, the our community lessons class, the communication skills training class, yet anyone

Jules Maloney 3:37
who has gone through our community listens the three day training before COVID, that was in person that we have adapted. Anyone who’s gone through that training will see some familiar themes in this training, and then there’ll be some new concepts so it builds upon what we’ve already done. However, you don’t have to have attended the communication skills training with our community lessons to step into this. Anyone who’s curious and interested can sign up for this Foundations of Leadership and gain new skills without needing any previous experience or background with our different types of trainings. It really is a wonderful way to grow our emotional intelligence and our sense of self while applying it to what does it mean to be a leader in a slightly different way?

Speaker 3 4:24
Sure, Jules, I’m curious what type of leaders does this class target?

Jules Maloney 4:30
This class is called Foundations of Leadership. But you do not have to be a leader in title to attend this. Certainly if you do have a leadership role. You will find many things to support you in building relationships with your people all through how do you understand yourself first, just like most of the work that we do at our community listens, it looks inside first self awareness, and then how we have relationships with other people how we can influence and guide them, and really embrace our humaneness. There. also opportunities for folks who we call informal leaders. So they influence people. And folks look up to them in a leadership context, but they may not have the title of a leadership role. So if somebody sees that they have the opportunity to influence people in their communities in their workspaces, or grow into an official leadership role, this class works for them as well.

Adam Salgat 5:23
So I know you’ve been through one or two classes overall, as the organization and I believe in your email to us, you went through the very first one, is that correct?

Jules Maloney 5:34
I’ve been a part of the series since the since not quite the beginning. It was it was customizing pilot in the beginning, and it ran well, so we decided to bring it in and really open it up, fill in any spaces that needed to be filled in a little bit more, and now we’re offering it more formally out into the community. The wonderful thing about this series as well, is that organizations can bring this in to as a dedicated class is what we call it, we can do it within an organization, just for people who are part of that organization. So it’s a wonderful opportunity to have an entire team, an entire leadership team go through the series together, they can apply the skills together within their organization, they can challenge each other, they can grow together, and can also be offered into the community. So anybody who wants to sign up can come in and share with their new peers in that context, and how they can apply the skills and grow and learn. It’s a wonderful shared learning space. And we’ve been able to create strong connection, even through the digital sphere. So learning how to do these types of trainings on Zoom or in different virtual spaces is a stretch. But folks really do show up willing to be vulnerable, willing to be honest and willing to really analyze who they are and how they can put their best selves forward with these tools.

Adam Salgat 7:01
So you mentioned, you know, this is available for anyone who’s kind of in this leadership role, whether it’s by title or not title, maybe influence, and I won’t lie when you said influencers, I thought of Instagram influencers. And I thought, well, maybe that’s not what she’s talking about. But there’s an element here of it’s available to anyone, no matter their experience. So maybe someone who’s a CEO of a Fortune 500 company, or someone who’s a manager, a local grocery store, anyone who’s kind of in that role of leading people. So I want you to touch on the key learning areas that this class focuses on.

Jules Maloney 7:41
Absolutely. And I appreciate that you talked about sort of different tiers of leadership. The metrics for this are your own sense of self. So if you sense that you have room to grow, the series is for you. If you believe you’ve mastered everything that you’ve need to master to be a leader, this may not be a space, you’re excited to be in. And I’d like to meet you as well, because we have to learn from you. My personal opinion is that, you know, if we can be curious, we’re always going to be seeing spaces that we can grow and learn into and the world changes so quickly look at our last couple of years. And it’s it’s really invite us all to take a pause and see how are we navigating these these new environments, these new maybe restrictions or ways of being and still having a strong sense of self, and the kind of relationships that we want to have with other people. So when we look at some of the key concepts, our first series looks at some thing we’re all familiar with is change, change. What happens and we are put into a situation, whether we chose it or not of change, and we help folks identify what does that look like? We call it the box, you know, COVID has put probably everybody in a box where you’re just

Adam Salgat 9:02
well, literally at one point, they locked us in our rooms, right? They were locked in a box,

Jules Maloney 9:09
we were put in a box, think back to what that was like, did you experience a little anxiety? Yeah, for sure. Stress, a little overwhelmed. And these tools you can apply to your personal life you can apply to your workspaces you can apply to your community life, whatever that might be. But really breaking that apart and being able to see what does it look like when I’m experiencing change? What does it look like when the people around me are experiencing change? And how can we support each other because even if the same team at work, and we’re all going through the same change, we each go through it differently. We’re unique people. So if we can identify where we are and support each other, we can navigate through that building our relationships all the while and find ways to have mutual support. And also being honest that sometimes when we’re thrown into change, so Some people don’t end up going through the change all the way through with us, they might recognize, wow, this is a lot for me. And I think I might be better suited for a different environment, a different team or a different space? And how do we open that up? And be honest and talk about that. So that first portion is really looking at that, from the leadership view. And sometimes you’re a leader, and you’re in that box going through the change. So what do you do to support yourself?

Adam Salgat 10:29
The next key learning area is something that we talk about a lot. And that is reflective listening, listening with empathy, and how that applies into critical business skills.

Jules Maloney 10:41
Yeah, really, honestly, for me, speaking from my own experience, and I’ve been in this work for a while, it doesn’t matter who you are, where you are in sort of our socialized norms of structure, and status, and success and achievement, whatever you want to call it. These skills are always needed. And these are the types of things that we need to keep coming back to, you never know, you might find you’re in a space of, you know, I can really listen to someone I’m really able to connect with them, I’m able to find that experience of empathy within myself that I can hold space for another person and see their perspective. But then maybe you get sick, or maybe your resources change, or the environment change. And suddenly, it’s a lot harder to find those skills, and very difficult to pick them up and use them. So continually coming back and finding ways of understanding what does it really mean to listen, even in situations where it’s so different than what I’m used to? How do I find empathy? How do I find connection? How do I move past judgment. And it’s really, for me, it’s a cyclical thing. And I continue to grow in it. And the more I do it, the easier it is to do. But I still need to connect to those tools. So I would imagine that really any series or training or offering that we do as we continue to grow as an organization will always have the five reflective listening skills built in, it is so important. And when emotions are high, and folks are stimulated, they can be tough to find those tools.

Adam Salgat 12:19
Awesome. And there’s a third one here, and Jonathan, I’m gonna put you on the spot. So the third principle here is how to be an awesome leader, even when you mess up. Curious if you happen to have any experience in that space, whether it’s being a leader in your family, maybe as a parent, and maybe you messed up, but you know, you found your way back. Or maybe it’s in, you know, your military setting. Any any example that comes to mind in this space for you?

Speaker 3 12:49
A great, great question, Adam. Obviously messed up many, many times. And fortunately, many less time since I have taken our community lessons, because it literally is trans is changed my perspective on leadership. And what that entails, literally, probably close to 180 degrees. When I mess up, honestly, probably transparency and apologies are probably my biggest learning lesson of being able to just go back and say I handled this incorrectly, whether it’s with my family, whether it’s with a co worker, or a team member that I’m leading, I think just the ability to go back and say, Look, I handled this poorly. That’s not how I should have handled it. And here’s what I like to do moving forward.

Adam Salgat 13:37
Jules, how does that relate to some of the lessons that we talked about in his leadership course?

Jules Maloney 13:43
Well, I think with exactly what Jonathan said, it’s tough sometimes to step into that space and, and acknowledge, Hey, I just did something that’s not what I intended, or I’m not proud of, and then maybe ask for a do over or ask for the person to be willing to hear you express and own what you did. And then say, This is what I would have done differently. It is such an in a vulnerable space to step into. So I’m a parent and I have kids. These are the people I’ve spent the most time with in my life. They’re in their 20s. They’re, they’re the people I care the most about. And yet sometimes it is so difficult for me to say, Wow, I did not handle that. Well. You’re looking to me to guide you in life and give good examples and that wasn’t one of them. So do you have the ability to sit down for a few moments and I’d like to express to you how I’m seeing that now. So this piece of the series it there’s a reason why it is the end of the series because it is vulnerable. It is a big ask. It’s not something that I grew up learning or having a role modeled for me. I don’t see it in the media. I don’t see it on television and when you talked about social media before and media influencers, think sometimes there’s so much pressure for people to be perfect, to look perfect to act perfect. And they compare and I compare myself to others. And I think it’s fairly common for folks to compare themselves to others. So in this session of the series, we really invite people to embrace their humaneness, and that we’re all chronically human, that we do make mistakes. And that’s part of it. And as Jonathan said, being able to learn from those mistakes, that’s what advances us in our ability to be a leader saying, I saw what happened there. I’m a fool that into my future behaviors, because I longed for richer connections and richer relationships in my world. So how do we first embrace that? And then how do we have the ability to analyze our behavior without judgment, and then be able to take the courageous step of speaking that out loud to another person, and and I use the phrase, it’s not a drop. And Ron, it’s not about delivering that message, like I made this mistake, here it is, here’s what I did. And here’s what I would have done differently, then we need to experience what that person has to say to us in a response. And maybe they share with us that it might have been painful or confusing, or whatever it might have been. And so this is helping you have a dialogue with someone, we just give you the tools and the steps to start the dialogue. And then it builds on previous sessions to continue the dialogue to go for that shared understanding, and that closer connection in seeing each other as a human, and how can we be our full selves and embrace that some of these things are going to happen? It really is amazing work. But it is it still work.

Speaker 3 16:49
So to touch back on that jewels, the vulnerability piece, and how sometimes it’s difficult for leaders why? Why are these skills important for leaders to have?

Jules Maloney 17:01
Well, when I think about, you know, everybody might have a different definition of what a leader is. They might have different ideas, they might have different stories. But when I think about my life, and being in this world, it really always comes down to the quality of the relationships that I have, while I’m on this earth. It’s not about the stuff, it’s not about the status, it’s not about the bank. It’s about how I interacted with the people in my world, and how that sits within me. So I would imagine for folks who are in a role where people do look to them, for guidance for support, they want to show up with the richness of integrity and dignity of the types of relationships they want to have, they want to be seen as someone who people look up to who are inspired by whether it has a title or not. And so these skills, these tools do require a bit of vulnerability to say, Well, who am I? How do people see me? How do I understand myself? And how do I conduct all these complex pieces into a way of engaging myself and others that I’m proud of I feel good about it creates the connection, the relationships I’m longing for. Leadership is an interesting word. I think many people are going to think about sort of CEO or someone who’s in a VP position or a manager position or somebody who has subordinates. And for me, when I think about leader it, it can be those things. And it can also be Who am I inspired by? Who do I want to show up in life inspired by Who am I seeing that’s enriching how I have an understanding of who I can be in this world and how I can engage people. So vulnerability is a big piece of it. But really, really being able to speak into it and and recognize we’re all navigating the same types of things when it comes to being chronically human.

Speaker 3 19:02
That vulnerability can be tough. But it’s interesting that how much respect that can garner with people we’re leading when we’re willing to be vulnerable with him.

Jules Maloney 19:14
Yeah, Jonathan, I think that’s an interesting statement too, because I do think there’s still fear of the word vulnerable. You know, if somebody hears like, yeah, we’re really looking for someone who knows how to be vulnerable. Oh, what, what does that mean? What do you want me to say? What do you want me to do? Are you asking me to bare my soul? And so how do we make the understanding of vulnerability and that it’s can really advance our sense of self and how we, how we navigate what it is that we’ve chosen to do in this world and make it less scary? So I think all of the steps in the work of our community listens in that particular training and the Chapman foundation for caring communities and specifically, the series might say For people who may be changing the stories they carry about being vulnerable. And one vulnerability is,

Adam Salgat 20:05
I was listening to a podcast yesterday of a go figure guy who started a podcast listening to podcasts. But I was listening to one and the gentleman was talking about his mental health disk, or his mental health journey, and how he’s going to continue to be vulnerable and open about it. Because if even if it helps one person, then that one person helps one more person. And that one person helps one more person. And in my mind, that is very much this idea of inspiring in this leadership, right? So it’s, it’s interesting to have these, this conversation today. And thinking about how that applies. Because he’s not a leader. He’s, he, he works in the sports field, and people listen to his opinion on the Detroit Tigers most specifically. And it’s interesting, though, that he knows there’s more to it than just that. And in his vulnerability, he wants to build to inspire and lead someone else, to a better, healthier life that they may be yearning and looking for.

Jules Maloney 21:13
Yeah, that inspiration piece is key. And, and when I mentioned before, the stories that we carry about vulnerability and what it means to be a leader, I think about those different environments. Here. You’re talking about the sports world, Jonathan, I know you are really aware of how these things show up in the military world. And I’m curious when you think about the term leadership, and you think about vulnerability and kind of owning our mistakes. Do you notice tension there?

Speaker 3 21:47
That’s an interesting question, Jules. I do. And ironically enough, before I took the art community lessons class, those two did not go hand in hand, whatsoever. They were the furthest apart, probably. And I would say probably mostly from a pride standpoint, and you talk about, you know, everybody, when we talk about mistakes, and being willing to own up to those, I fell in that camp of feeling. If I’m in this role, or this position, I need to be perfect all the time. And no one can see that I’m not perfect. And the class religious trying to change my entire life from that standpoint of this is not what it’s about. It’s really just being we’re able to accept that your term, we’re all chronically human right, and being able to admit that, and that’s why I brought that point of it’s amazing the amount of respect and Garner’s when you’re willing to show up as a leader in that way. Even in the military, I’ve been extremely surprised that their willingness to I hate to say the term inspired but the respect garnered even in the military, when you’re willing to show up in that way.

Jules Maloney 22:59
Yeah, that’s the piece of being able to own it, to speak into it, whether it’s mental health, whether it’s I made a mistake, or, you know, I’m setting my my desire to be perfect. And my pride aside, I’m gonna admit to you right now, something about this was really hard. It does make people more relatable. And it does inspire a sense of connection to have somebody who maybe you held an idea about, who was perfect for them to admit, like, whew, this is not easy for me, or I really struggle in a dark space. I spent a lot of time on the shadow side of that. And to go home, not alone. You mean, I mean, there’s other people that think this way too, right. I can actually inspire others, and also be messy and some things I struggle with. Yeah, you can you really can.

Adam Salgat 23:52
Yeah, you become more human. Right?

Jules Maloney 23:55
Yeah. When someone in my world, especially someone who is in a leadership role, admits something that they struggle with, or admit something they’re challenged by, or can say, I’m not understanding that it helps me recognize, well, where can I adjust? Where can I adapt, so that together we can actually be more effective or more supportive of each other or reach our goal, or whatever it might be. If I don’t have that piece of information, then I’m going to continue to operate on the story that I have of that person, right, may not be accurate. So how do we how do we know ourselves well enough, that we can admit what our challenges are, we can admit when we didn’t go the direction we intended or we struggled in the delivery of something and someone else can recognize, okay, I’m seeing that and how can we adjust and support each other going forward? You know, we also utilize behavioral tendency He’s quite a bit and the work that we do here at Chapman foundation for caring communities. And that helps us see that we have different perspectives, we have different lenses in which we view the same thing. And it helps us move past those assumptions. But if we can also add our voice to the specificity of that, then invites people to step into those spaces that need support a gap that needs to be filled, or just some empathy for someone else’s experience. So I know I’m speaking a little bit, what I could say is out there. When I think about the leadership series is built on self awareness, you cannot do any of this work if you don’t know yourself. And so you provide tools throughout the series on how do you continue to ask yourself questions, to really notice your behavior. Notice the feelings that are stimulated in certain situations. And really one of the most important things is what’s the core need? What are your values that are behind the behaviors that you’re demonstrating, or someone else might. And that information then allows you to make skillful steps in how you can inspire people how you can build connection, understanding, or have really tough conversations that maybe you’ve been avoiding before. But now with more information, and hopefully some confidence, you can lean into those spaces.

Adam Salgat 26:22
Jewels. Before we wrap up today, I want to ask you two questions about your leadership and in the steps that you have taken over the years. So what’s a skill that you have found most useful in your leadership style?

Jules Maloney 26:37
For me, I think that answer will almost always be empathy. Empathy is easier said than done, I have been blessed to experience somebody else holding space for me is a way I call it, which is them having empathy for my experience, and not trying to fix me or change me or tell me what to do. But allow me to just be who I am in that moment. And oftentimes, I figure out what I need to do next, that person was just allowing me to go on that journey. So empathy has really been a beautiful gift. To change how I know myself, it has been a catalyst to change how I communicate. And it also has been a catalyst in in me wanting to continue to grow in leadership and somebody who can influence people in a way that is creating a world I want to live in, and I want to be in. So that will probably be the answer has been for many years forward. Because sometimes it’s elusive. Sometimes like, wait a minute, I’m too angry right now to find empathy, or I’m just to judging way too hard. Well, it’s an invitation for me to slow down and just be curious and recognize the messiness of things also has beauty to it.

Speaker 3 27:54
Empathy, also probably my favorite part that I’ve learned through all of this. I’m curious if that is also of all the skills you guys teach in the leadership’s if that empathy piece is also the one you wish you would have known in your very first leadership role than you ever had, or if it would be something else, then? Well,

Jules Maloney 28:14
I think it’s integrated. And that’s the thing about empathy is it’s really a strong thread that’s woven through every aspect of what we do. I think the thing that I wish I understood more was to how to accept and step and lean into change. So I have gone through so much change in my life. I mean, just for a little perspective, I’m 48 years old, and I’m now in the 25th place I’ve lived, and no, my family was not in the military, probably in many states that I’ve lived in. So change is something that that has always been small and large part of my life just like everyone. But I think that I’ve had so much anxiety around change. And I end up internalizing that, and feeling shame on how I manage change, or how I, how I look at it, and maybe if I struggle with it, I see it as a deficiency on my part. So this tool has allowed me to accept that change is part of everyone’s life, and that we navigate it differently. And it’s allowed me to see in my past, how have I done it, what did I do? And now how can I look at other people who are in my world, in my work world, who I have the ability to influence and see where they’re struggling or where their challenge and also where they’re, they’re really moving through change with incredible grace, and be curious about that and see what I can harvest to grow my own skills and then be able to circle that back and apply in supporting and building relationships with others. So that whole piece about change understanding change, be In the box, seeing what the different stages of change are, and just opening up to everybody’s journey is different. And there’s no right way. There’s no perfect way there’s no shame in in sometimes stumbling through the box, or you get out and then you’re back in it, you’re like, wait a minute, how did that happen? Through it, something shifted. So and that’s where the empathy piece comes in Jonathan, where it just really weaves back around to say that my experience is mine. But how do I recognize that someone else is going to look different. And if I can just be a support for them, and be listening and in and help guide them through their process? That, to me is what leadership can look like part of it?

Speaker 3 30:46
That’s awesome. Adam, you do not have to put this in the podcast. But Jules, I just want to say, I love the fact you brought that up, because we talk in OCL, about leading people through the box, and how everyone responds to change differently. And I have never looked at it from my own perspective of like, it’s okay for the anxiety that I experienced what I am asked to change you’re going through I have never looked at from that perspective. So that’s awesome. You brought that up. And I want to think about

Jules Maloney 31:21
well, on to me, you saying that right now is a perfect demonstration of what these classes these series of these courses are about is inspiring each other by being able to share our unique ways of moving through situations, I learned by hearing other people’s stories, and you just gave an example of the way I described, it was different than how you’ve seen it before. So let’s just keep talking about these things and opening it up, apply it, try it, share it back, what do we learn? How do we carry it forward? The more the merrier. My view is not the only view I want to hear from other people. And hopefully others share that sentiment and, and to me, it just lifts us all up if we can, if we can lead in this way with this type of awareness and care for each other.

Adam Salgat 32:12
If someone has been listening to our podcast here, and they’re like, I want to sign up, let’s do it. Or I want to get my organization involved. I’ve got a group of leaders that, you know, I want them to go through this experience and have opportunity to grow and to, you know, lead with empathy, listen, and, you know, work on change. How can they get started, I would assume right now the website is most basic place to get started. But any other recommendations

Jules Maloney 32:46
you’re right at on the website is that first start, we will be offering Foundations of Leadership mid summer, and then again in the fall. And there may be opportunities where it pops up again, open for anyone to come and sign up. Now, if somebody is part of an organization, they definitely can reach out to us through the website as well. And an ask to find out more information. We do have an email that’s attached to this series Foundations of Leadership, where folks can reach out and communicate and we can start the dialogue. You know, what does it look like to bring this into their organization. And when we look at the structure, the sort of basic structure that we have of this series right now is it can be set weekly, over four weeks. And the first three weeks are the content that we’re sharing these main concepts that we touched on here. And then the fourth week is a session where people can come back and say, How’s it going, how they apply it, what worked, and what do they need a little more support on, we don’t want to just send folks out there without them having an opportunity to try it. And then resharpen the tool with the support of facilitators. Now within an organization, this can be customized a little bit we can actually bring those are called Connect sessions that last one, we can bring those in after each session and organize the organization might want to stretch this out over several months, and have those discussions sessions after each learning session to see how it’s, they might actually want to squeeze it closer together and do the four series four sessions within two weeks. There’s many ways in which it can be done. We also can utilize disk. So disk is something that we offer separately, but within organizations, we can do that on the front side, and then add Foundations of Leadership four part series after that. And that really just takes the learning even deeper. So there’s many options. There’s many ways folks can bring this within their organization, their community, their faith based groups, whatever that might be. And then of course, there’s the ones that are open up to community members, and I love those those are. I think of them as cross pollinators. coming from all over different industries, different places, sharing and learning with each other, and they cross pollinate ideas, when you bring it into an organization, they can really take it deep, and continue that learning with each other after the series is over.

Adam Salgat 35:16
Yep, we’ve done a few podcasts talking about, like my wife personal story of her interaction in OCL training of, you know, working with young man who was more of a leader than her, when normally you would say, I should say he had those disc tendencies to be that direct leader, and she is the one that likes to just take, take the orders. So as an 18 year old, he’s telling her what to do. But she’s realized, it doesn’t matter what the age is, it comes down to how can we work together, and they worked together? Well, like that. And then when you were talking about the organization, going deeper, and people kind of, you know, working on it together and connecting, I remember, we had a podcast about a couple women in Colorado, excuse me for not remembering their names at this moment in time. But they used to get together on their lunch breaks, or go for walks every so often and talk about the skills. So it’s really interesting when you have kind of that work, buddy, you know, because we spend a lot of time with our work, people compared to home and family sometimes. So it’s good to have that work, buddy, who else reiterate those skills?

Jules Maloney 36:27
Yeah, absolutely. That shared learning that shared reality. And you know, one story that I wanted to share that that, you know, could be put in a little bit earlier, were talking about what I learned, I think about a time in my previous role, where I didn’t have these skills, I had some of them, but I really hadn’t cultivated some of these skills. I was in a situation with a co worker where I just didn’t feel understood, and it didn’t feel heard. And I found that her behaviors were in my words, Hijacking My role. And that she was kind of telling me what to do, when that really wasn’t her place. And so I wanted to have a conversation with her. But I didn’t have all of these tools in really, I didn’t want to have a conversation with her, I wanted to go in there and tell her everything on my mind without actually hearing what was on her mind. And remember, and this is, mind you, I’ve been in this field and doing this type of work for a long time. But in time, you really can mature and your impact of these skills can get richer. But at the time, my skills were kind of raw. And I remember at one point in this interaction, and I’m a pretty conflict averse, fairly peaceful person. And I remember seeing out of the corner of my eye, my pointing finger going back and forth towards her. And as it’s happening, I’m saying in my head, what’s happening right now, I am I shaking my finger pointing at her. I know better than this. But I couldn’t access my tools, because I was so focused on going in there and asserting my perspective only and focused on her seeing me not realizing the other part of the equation is me seeing her and what was important to her. And then us being able to go back and forth trying to understand each other until we both experienced being heard and understood. Once that could happen, then we could co create how our work relationship was going to move forward. But it didn’t go in that way. And they ended up causing more harm and more damage when my original intent was to actually create more understanding. And I did the opposite. So what reason, but that’s part of it, you know, having gone through that experience and sitting with the pain of that, and knowing that that was a missed relationship or a missed opportunity crave to be more effective. And these skills help do that.

Adam Salgat 38:56
I think this is a great opportunity for me to use my pointer finger and start hitting the stop button. We are reaching kind of our peak. Thank you so much for sharing that story though, because it really shows we live and we learn right?

Jules Maloney 39:10
I like to say life is messy. Humans are messy. But messy includes beauty, right? It’s all about being chronically human.

Adam Salgat 39:19
Well, Jonathan and Jules, thank you both so much for being on the podcast today. I’ll just touch base one more time. Jonathan, anything else you’d like to add?

Speaker 3 39:29
No, that was fantastic. Thank you, Adam for allowing me to participate.

Adam Salgat 39:34
Allowing, allowing is not the right word here but I got you. You are welcome Newell’s anything else you’d like to add about the leadership series or about just connection in general?

Jules Maloney 39:47
We look forward to seeing people in that learning space. And if you can’t get to it this summer, stay tuned and hopefully we might even be in face to face space with you sharing this information. So we may have Both options, digital and face to face. And Adam, I appreciate you and creating space for us to share it forward. And Jonathan, it’s really nice to hear your experiences and your perspective on this the same tools and this content. Thank you