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064 -Delivering confrontation messages

Join Adam J. Salgat as he discusses delivering a confrontation message with Julie Chapman.

We tend to avoid confrontation, yet if we don’t choose to confront, will anything change? Examine the value of starting a conversation, exploring both perspectives and asking the other person for a change. Practice listening to understand rather than listening to reply. Considering the other person’s perspective, you may discover something new, which could change the outcome of the conflict.

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Adam Salgat 0:01
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Hello, my name is Adam Salgat. And today’s topic is confrontation. Today we’re going to discuss why we tend to avoid confrontation. When is the right time to confront. And we’re going to discuss how to deliver an effective confrontation message. Utilizing feelings behavior and impact. This conversation builds off of three prior podcasts where we covered those three elements. So if you get a chance, go back and listen to 5658 and 60. Or an even deeper understanding. My guest is Julie Chapman facilitator. And also, she has been developing and delivering webinars for OCL for the last three years. Julie is based out of Charleston, South Carolina. And as we discussed in our pre chat, it’s it’s a little chilly for her down there. So I hope she’s staying warm. Julie told me a little bit how you’re doing today and how you been?

Speaker 2 2:59
I am doing great, Adam, thank you for asking you like you said it’s a little cold for us. 30s 40s is Arctic, but we’ll survive.

Adam Salgat 3:09
Yeah, you’ll get through it, trust me. And I wanted to thank you for choosing to take some time and talk about confrontation with us. I know you’ve delivered a few webinars about this. Today we’re going to be talking, you know, we’re going to be taking elements from the webinar should I confront, which is available on our YouTube channel. So we can get even, you know, if you want some more examples and more in depth information, you can find it there. But we’re going to I’m going to start this conversation off by just talking about confrontation in general. And ask you, you know, why do we tend to avoid confrontation? And what are some words that come to mind that people share when they think about confrontation?

Speaker 2 3:46
There are many reasons we avoid confrontation. Some of us have unpleasant past experiences that are triggered when negative words come up or if someone starts yelling, we also like to be needed or it’s unpredictable outcomes. We fear hurting someone we fear more conflict or lack of trust. Here’s a favorite one a false belief it will go away. You know, a lot of times we believe that it will just go away. That’s not realistic.

Adam Salgat 4:18
May not be realistic. But I will tell you that that is one of my biggest elements is I will I kind of just will believe that it will fix itself. I mean I don’t necessarily need to confront but you know, that leaves me in a bad spot sometimes creating resentment or being annoyed with people when maybe I didn’t need to be

Speaker 2 4:36
most of us avoid clear confrontation because we want to be kind to the other person and we feel like it’s too direct. To to be clear. My favorite saying is clear is kind unclear is unkind. We are not kind when it when it’s a cloudy confrontation or when we start telling them everything think they’re doing wrong. And not the specific scenario

Adam Salgat 5:04
is a really great way to illustrate it in my mind, because when I heard you mentioned in the webinar about when we’re talking about people and not talking to people, and so when you’re talking about being unkind, that’s a little bit of that unkind, right? When you might be, for lack of a better term, you know, talking behind someone’s back, for example, and not confronting them, correct?

Speaker 2 5:26
Yes. And for me, this material was a game changer. I was one who hated confrontation. And I would avoid it like the plague. I grew up in a family that nobody confronted, we were always just kind and things balled up. And so I avoided it like the plague. And consequently, I wasn’t very good at it. When I learned that we confront in relationships where we actually care about them. Instead of I thought that we had to protect relationships, and that we swept everything under the rug. And all of a sudden, I’m like, wait a minute, when I care about this person, I’m not being kind when I don’t tell them when I’m coming, where I’m coming from. And I don’t have to yell about it. That’s the beauty of this method. I just go to them and lay it out. It is a conversation starter. That’s all it is.

Adam Salgat 6:17
That’s the other point that I wanted to make sure that we bring up in these eight often in our community lessons. That confrontation is a conversation starter. And we’re not looking to create animosity or to create a fight, right, say an argument, looking to create a discussion, correct?

Speaker 2 6:35
Yes. And we are sharing something that is going inside, going on inside of us with the other person because none of us are mind reader’s as much as we would like the other person to be able to read our mind. We can’t do it. And so Adam, you don’t know what I’m thinking until I share that with you. And that’s what is great about the confrontation message sets it up. So when we start to listen, we start to see their backstory, we start to hear where they’re coming from, and it might even change our perspective. Chacha.

Adam Salgat 7:10
Let’s talk a little bit about getting to the point of needing to give that confrontation message. So before we decide that we need to give it talk a little bit about the three choices that we have when we’re met with something that’s impacting us.

Speaker 2 7:22
When I’m deciding whether to confront somebody, I think of three moves that I can make, in every situation, I can accept the behavior. It may be something that I just say, you know, they’re they’re doing so many other things well and right, I can just let this go. And I consciously make the decision to let it go. I cannot a month later throw it back in their face. It has to be a true authentic letting it go accepting it.

Adam Salgat 7:52
If you don’t mind. You shared an example, in your webinar about some barstools. I don’t believe it was your specific example if I remember someone else’s, but it stuck with me. I think it was a really good one.

Speaker 2 8:05
I stole it. Many years ago. Yes. One of my colleagues traveled a lot. And she she was coming home after two weeks on the road. Her husband had been home working. She walks in the door, and she walks into the kitchen and there were a couple of bar stools pushed out and she stopped. And she said and he looked at her and he said Really? Really? She said, Well, the barstools, they’re out you know, that’s like one of my pet peeves. And he said, Sweetheart, did you notice that the grass is cut, the flower beds are mulched. And we did the carpet is vacuumed. The kitchen is clean. Dinner is in the oven. Everything is ready for you to come home. And I haven’t seen you in two weeks. At that moment. She decided that she could accept his behavior. If he left out a barstool every once in a while. It is just something she could accept because he was an amazing husband, good provider. Awesome father. She could accept it now. She can’t two months later, bring it back up to him. It has to be a true acceptance. Yeah,

Adam Salgat 9:21
we talk about that often a true acceptance, knowing that you can move past it each time it comes up, even in the future. So other than acceptance, and thank you for sharing that story. By the way, it did stick with me because it’s easy for us sometimes to go, Oh my gosh, I’ve told you 1000 times, well, you know, I’ve also done XYZ, you know, so a little bit of grace would be nice. Right? Exactly. So there’s acceptance and our other options,

Speaker 2 9:48
right? Let’s use that scenario again. Sure. And, and say that she can’t authentically accept it because it’s it’s not something you need to force yourself to because then that’s false acceptance. Sure. So let’s say that she can’t accept it. So she can adjust the circumstances she can glue the, the barstools to the ground, she can get rid of the bar stools completely. She can never come home, she could divorce her husband. I mean, there’s things that she could do to adjust their circumstances. And there are often actions that we can take to adjust it. If we can’t come up with anything that makes sense. Like she didn’t want to do any of those four things that I recommended, she could go to him and ask for change. Right. And that is what the confrontation message is going humbly sharing the experience that she’s having, when she sees those barstools out and ask for change.

Adam Salgat 10:47
You shared an example of asking for change direct asking for change with your son and taking care of the garbage. You might bring that one up for us. Yes.

Speaker 2 10:57
Before I get in there, I want before I get into the scenario, I want to tell you that a confrontation message and you said this in your introduction is composed of three elements, its feelings, behavior, and impact in the order is unimportant. We want to include all of them. So many years ago, one of my sons was in charge of taking out the trash can to the corner, and then bringing it back. Two days later, or a day later, whenever they would come and pick it up. He was good about taking it out to the corner on a Sunday night. And yet, by Tuesday or Wednesday, the trash can could still be out and getting in my way when I would pull the car up. In the past when I would pull the car up and I’d see that Trash Can I go oh, and I’d run in and I go to the bottom of stairs and I’d say hey, come down here and get your trash can out. Right. And after taking our community listens class, I decided to do it in a different way. So I text them, Hey, come on down. When you got to the bottom of the stairs, I said, Hey, I’m not even sure if you realize this. When you when I pull into the driveway, and the trash cans are still there. On Tuesday or Wednesday. I feel frustrated and agitated. And I want to come in here and start yelling at you. And I really don’t want to. And he goes, sorry, Mom, I forgot. He ran out brought it back in the next week. He took the trash out. Tuesday I pulled in the driveway again, trash can was still there, like, Oh, but I have to stay the course. Okay, because people don’t change overnight. You have to stay the course. So I went in there, I text him again. And he was walking down and I said, hey, when you and he goes, Yeah, I got it. I got it. So he went out there brought it back in. The next week. I didn’t have to mention anything about the trashcan he had brought it in. Now, that was probably seven years ago. He is 24 doesn’t live at home anymore. When he is home. When he comes by on Monday or Tuesday he brings in the trash can.

Adam Salgat 13:12
That’s pretty awesome. And that’s a it’s a good story to share that he connected in my mind anyway, he connected more with you sharing your frustration, as opposed to you unnecessarily showing frustration and and choosing to yell potentially, where that might have caused him to shut down. I mean, I don’t I don’t want to paint direct pictures of your relationship with your son. But that’s what can happen. Am I correct?

Speaker 2 13:36
You are absolutely correct. And nobody likes to be yelled at. We, you know, kids, grownups none of us like that kind of correction.

Adam Salgat 13:46
And I think you know, we didn’t talk about this inside of why people are afraid of confrontation, but being yelled at is definitely one of them. And it is you know, that brings up part of what you mentioned in the webinar, the four coping responses the fight flight folder freeze, and how when we’re yelled at in those spaces we what I don’t see in that is fight flight folder freezes the opportunity to share. You know what I mean? Yes, normally, you’re gonna do one of those three, or one of those four, I’m sorry, it but oftentimes it’s not actually productive, depending on situations, of course. But you know, when you’re not given the opportunity to share your side of the story or connect with somebody when you’re going through those coping responses.

Speaker 2 14:32
Right. And why it’s important to note recognize your coping response is that when you become self aware, you have the opportunity to change it to make some shifts. I didn’t realize until I had been in a situation where somebody yelled at me and one of my children was there with me. And when the other person left, my my child looked at me and said, Why didn’t you stop them? And on reflection, I realized I freeze. Yeah, I just froze. In that moment, I resisted power. I couldn’t say a word. I took everything I had deep push them out the door. Now that I realized that I freeze, I don’t freeze anymore. It’s it’s like you bring it to your consciousness, and all of a sudden you recognize it before it, you even go down that path very far. You’re like, Oh, I’m freezing. I need to send a confrontation message.

Adam Salgat 15:31
Yep. Yep. So let’s talk about that confrontation message. Again, you’ve given a couple examples of you know how we first how we get to that point. Let’s talk about we’ve created the message, even the one with your son, you’ve gotten the message created? Can you speak about inflection body language, talk a little bit about the nonverbals, when it comes to delivering that confrontation message, things that we should keep in mind.

Speaker 2 15:58
Words are really important. And you talk about spending time focusing on the words, right, yep. And yet, words are 10% of our message when we deliver them in an emotional situation. 40% is our tone. 50% is our nonverbal communication, our tone can derail any conversation, it can, it can cause somebody to become defensive just like this. So if we spend a lot of time on our words, but we deliver them with a condescending tone, yeah, they don’t hear a word we say it’s all about the tone. And that is also with body language. So you know, having your arms kind of open and not crossed, and leaning in good eye contact, allowing the person to feel like they have space, you’re not trying to change the subject or move them along, you’re just kind of being there. So you send the message. And then you switch, you kind of switch gears and almost sit backwards in a chair, if you can kind of picture that movement. In listen, and you’re listening to understand not to reply, we all have reasons for why we do what we do. Often, we don’t know those reasons, unless Adam, you share with me why you did X, Y, or Z. When I start to hear your reasons, it may make perfect sense. And it could change my perspective or not, though, I now have new additional information. And it’s really important for us to listen to everyone, especially our teenagers, they do not open up unless they feel empathy. So empathy is about attempting to see it from their perspective, you know, looking at it through their shoes, when I am speaking to my children. And now my last one just turned 21. So I have no more teenagers, hallelujah. But I’ve had many, many years of teen hood, you get no information from them when you’re not exhibiting empathy. As I’m talking, and I’m trying to get information from them, and they’re giving me nothing, I have to ask myself, Am I attempting to see it from their perspective? The answer is usually no. I’m just dictating. I’m just, you know, being hard on them. When I make that switch, and I say, help me understand where you’re coming from. All of a sudden, they start to open up.

Adam Salgat 18:25
I don’t have teenagers, I have a five year old. You might soon enough. Yeah, time flies. But I want to, I want to comment on what you just talked about the opportunity to look at it from her perspective. So when we are getting ready for bed, I’m very much like Chop, chop, chop, do do get your pajamas on or get your pull up on get your pajamas on brush your teeth go potty, like it’s, it’s a 123, get them done. And then you can have some time to play before we read books like to me, I’d very much like just get those done and take care of it. And then you’ll get your opportunity to do what you want. I’ve definitely caught myself at certain times needing to relax a bit and look at what it is she is trying to do. In the middle of all of those things, meaning she might be trying to play, she might be trying to collect some toys, or a stuffed animal that she wants to bring to bed. So in those opportunities, I’ve caught myself at times, knowing I need to slow down and look at it from her perspective, that these are things that are important to her in this moment. And obviously we’re just getting ready for bed. If it’s an extra minute, we have that extra minute. It’s not it’s not get out of the house because it’s on fire. It’s not a danger. You know? I think that’s um, I think that’s an amazing, amazing advice to remember that we need to approach with empathy. And that was something that you mentioned in your webinar. After delivering your confrontation message you mentioned to everyone, did you show empathy and your your comments about shift your perspective and turn and listen to what they have to say, as opposed to, I think Sara and I used to refer to it, as you know, just listen to respond, right, you’ve listened to understand. And so I think those comments, they make a lot of they make a lot of sense. And I know in your webinar, you mentioned the five reflective listening skills, if you want to go over those quickly, to just give a quick refresher for people on after we deliver that confrontation message, what should we be exhibiting as reflective listening skills,

Speaker 2 20:32
you have asked me to talk about something I am extremely passionate about listening, I can’t tell you how many times I have given the spiel that I’m about to give. Because it’s so important it is it’s so crucial. So I just send you a confirmation message. Now I have to switch gears and and say, help me understand where you’re coming from, help me to picture what it’s like, from your lenses, we number them, five, five reflective listening skills. And yet they are not numbered in order, we just remember things when they are numbered. So number one is attending behavior, it’s like being all in, you want to be present fully present in conversation, we cannot use technology and be all in, we think that we can, but we can’t, what it looks like in the business world is somebody walks into your office, and you close your computer screen, you get up and walk around and sit down facing them without the the desk in the in between you two, it is your children come up to reach to have you read them a book and you put down your phone or you put it way far away. When I go and have lunch with somebody or a meeting, and I am needing to get on with my day, you know, I have certain timeframe. Because I can get lost in time. I love getting lost in time. So I have to work really hard at not blowing my my day by being late. So I will pull out my phone and say I have one hour to be with you. I’m going to set my my timer for 15 minutes. And then I can put it away and I’m all in. When I don’t do that I’m looking at my watch constantly. And the other person perceives that as I’m ready to go. I’m bored. And that’s not true. It’s I’m trying to not lose myself. So doing you know, things that help you be present is really important. And then acknowledgments. This can really help when you’re on the phone. How many times have we been talking to somebody and we say are you still there and they’re gone? And so we feel kind of silly? Or I have people say are you still there? Are you still there? And I say Yes, I’m listening. If I use acknowledgments it clues them in that I’m following. So it’s like, wow, that’s interesting. Yep. It just is confirmation that I am present and that I am participating in the conversation by actively listening. And then we have door openers, we have been programmed to believe that questions are the way to show that we are engaged. Studies have shown that when people are asked multiple questions, they shut down. It’s like they are on the witness stand. None of us like to be peppered with questions. If you are in that, in that situation. You really do just like wait a minute stops. I can’t take it any longer. Absolutely. Instead of questions. Use door openers. door openers are statements that encourage the person to continue to talk or even start the conversation. I decided to use door openers when my son was in middle school. And in the past, I would pick him up and he and I’d say how’s your day? He said fine. What do you do? Nothing. Where do you go nowhere? I mean, every question I asked. I got one to two word answers. Yeah. I thought I was like pulling it out of him. And it became a game like how much can I pull out?

Adam Salgat 24:11
Right? What’s my what’s my next question? What other questions?

Speaker 2 24:15
Yes. Instead, I decided to give him a door opener. Picked him up. He got in the car. I said, Hey, tell me about your day. All of a sudden, he had to say something. He had to come up with it. So he was like, Well, I made a 90 on my math test. I played soccer and PE we ate hamburgers for lunch and oh, I don’t have any homework. Wow. I mean, how much more information did I get by one statement over four questions.

Adam Salgat 24:48
Plus, I’m guessing his inflection and his involvement was a lot different because you got to ask those and got the same exact answers, but he probably would have felt like you were just prying for information.

Speaker 2 24:58
Yes, and I may not know something that’s important to him to even ask the question. When I open it up to for him, then he tells me what’s on his mind know what is important. Yep.

Adam Salgat 25:11
I’m going to touch on this next one silence. I’m going to make my standard joke. We don’t do that on a podcast though. silence on a podcast makes people think their phones haywire or something that happened to the recording, but touch touch on it and what that means in conversation.

Speaker 2 25:27
I didn’t even know that silence was a part of a conversation. I thought that when somebody fell silent, you said something witty, you changed the subject you gave advice. It was now me having to perform, right? That’s a lot of responsibility. I thought that was my role. So when somebody fell silent, I would like, jump in. Okay, let’s what do we do next silence is the place that people can start to breathe. It is amazing that often when we are peppering them with questions, they get anxious, or they they are trying to think on the fly. Instead, when we use silence, especially if we have given them a door opener, and then we switch gears and just start to use our silence. You almost can see them take a deep breath. There’s punishing silence. And that’s not what we’re talking about. That’s not you know, we all have been exposed to the silent treatment. Yep, not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about inviting silence, where the person can continue talking, continue thinking. And this is crucial when we are in a confrontation, because I can give a confrontation message to the best of my ability. And if it’s a hot topic, they’re going to get their anxiety is going to get elevated their emotional state is going to rise. Silence allows them to verbalize and then fall silent, to really go deeper in their thoughts. And I have you seen silence us like two or three times I call them rounds. And the person returns back to logic. And all of a sudden, they’re they’re not talking crazy anymore, it makes sense. And they’re able to attack the problem at hand. Silence is helpful. When you are allowing the other person to work through something that they need to solve on their own. Then there’s there’s two types of silence, right, there’s internal silence and external silence. So internal silence can be the hardest because we we are thinking of the errands that we have to go and run as soon as we leave the talking to this person or the laundry list or whatever it is. We have to be purposeful about wiping our whiteboard clean. So you picture your your mind being a whiteboard, and you just have to wipe it clean. And in the place of all those lists or changing the subject or telling a story, you start to think about what are they actually feeling? And what is the scenario they’re telling me about? What are the facts about the scenario? And then I send it back. So that’s number five, that’s reflectively responding.

Adam Salgat 28:21
That’s what I was gonna say that this idea of the whiteboard and replacing it with, I really love that imagery of wiping it clean. But not just having a clean and listening actually maybe taking like mental notes on that, right. That’s what you’re suggesting, I suppose.

Speaker 2 28:35
Yes, yes. And the one thing that I did not say about silence is that there’s also external silence. And that can be challenging to many of us, me included, when I first started using silence, because that was the thing I tackled first, I chose the hardest thing to tackle first. And I would actually have to put my hand over my mouth to remind myself, my finger to remind myself not to talk, or I would put a rubber band around my wrist and I would pop it when I was taught when I was listening to remind myself to be quiet. Here’s another tip that I use. I have a son who’s long distance and so most of our conversations are by phone. And he may say something, and my my initial reaction is to go Oh, no, or you know something. And then he gets defensive. So what I’ve started doing is muting myself and so that I can have any I can say whatever I want off the cuff with because you know, you can beat yourself up for it. Sometimes you can’t help it but you know, you can work on it. Yeah, I mute myself. And so then after I’ve said whatever, he didn’t hear it, and then I can say Was that helpful? Should I say it should I say in a different way. And if it wasn’t helpful, then I just discard it, but it has done wonders to my relationship with them. That is a

Adam Salgat 29:55
pretty interesting tip to utilize technology in that space. And it still allows you a little bit have freedom or leeway to let your mind speak, let your let your mouth go. But, you know, give him the space that you know he needs and utilize technology as the benefactor or as as a benefactor. So, let’s let’s wrap that up with reflective response, though. And we mentioned when you’re keeping that internal silence, and you have those kind of mental notes made on the whiteboard, how do we utilize that information?

Speaker 2 30:27
We reflectively respond. That was the last skill that I practiced. I didn’t think it was that important. It didn’t feel right. Because when you’re learning these things, it’s like learning a new language. And it doesn’t sound right. It sounds staged, right. I didn’t use reflectively responding for quite some time. And then I was in a situation where somebody had to tell me this situation that was going on in their life. And I listened, I think I said two sentences in an hour. And I, they were both reflective responses. What I noticed when I used the responses in that way with the facts and feelings, so I would say, Wow, when you sound frustrated, when he hangs up the phone without saying goodbye. Yeah. And then she would say, yes, it really does frustrate me. And sometimes we don’t even realize what we’re feeling until somebody feeds it back to us. They’re like, Oh, my gosh, yes, I am frustrated. Or she could say, No, I’m not frustrated, I am ticked off, or I’m agitated, or I feel disrespected. Don’t be afraid of getting it wrong. It shows the person that you are listening, and that you are clarifying. What is beautiful about number five, is that you can’t fake that. I say that you can’t fake any of these. I mean, you have to be all in. As you get better at doing this. I can sort of listen and be doing other things in my mind. People call me up on it all the time, though, because they know what it’s like for me to be all in my kids are like, Mom, you’re not listening, when before that was probably my MO. But now they know what it feels like to really be listened to. So they definitely let me know when I’m not. The thing about reflectively responding is there’s no way that I can fake it. And that’s why it’s so powerful people know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are being heard doesn’t mean we have to agree with them. It means that we are accepting that this is where they are at the time. Right. And we are listening to understand

Adam Salgat 32:40
our conversation is focused around confrontation. Yes, covering these listening skills, though, again, I think oftentimes, when we think about these, we just think about them in our everyday conversations, we don’t think about them, and how important they are, when it comes to confrontation. And I, us going through all of this really made me realize, after you deliver that confrontation message, if you don’t sit back with these in mind, you’re really potentially creating a powder keg, right? You could be just waiting for that person to say something for you to get jump at them or for them to come back at you. But if you’re listening with these five skills in mind, it changes it can change everything, would you would you agree?

Speaker 2 33:21
Yes. In the past, when we aren’t thinking about the skills, we deliver a confrontation message, however it’s composed. And a lot of times it’s with yelling, and then we want that person to go away and come back changed. Yep. That’s impossible. Right? When we deliver a confrontation message, because we care about this relationship, it is important for us to listen, we are obligated to listen, we have to listen, when we approach listening in a way that I call it fact finding. Data Mining, we’re not asking tons of questions. We’re fact finding. So I want to understand why you did what you did. Not in condemnation or criticism. But help me understand I’d like to know where you’re coming from, in this perspective, when the person feels heard and feels that I do care about where they’re coming from, even though it’s impacting me negatively, there’s a greater chance of them changing after they’ve been heard. So, you know, they’re defending their position at first, they’re like, well, that is, you know, this is why I’m doing this. And as we sit there and listen, and I’m not talking about in a space where you fear for your life, or it is escalating, that that is not what I’m talking about. If you ever find yourself in a bad situation. This can help but don’t to stay in a bad situation, if you are fearful for you no harm. Sure. When I listen to somebody, even if they are very upset, they can’t keep yelling at me if I’m not yelling at them, they can’t keep being upset when I am attempting to see it from their perspective, I’ve had a couple of people in my life where I have been able to practice these skills, instead of coming back with knee jerk reactions. And amazing things have happened. When we have gotten to compromises that I never thought were possible, where we both, you know, when I listen to somebody completely out, they’re more likely to Then listen to me, and you begin to have a conversation full of respect. That doesn’t mean we need to see eye to eye exactly where the other person is coming from. But there is an element of respect.

Adam Salgat 35:55
Well, Julie, as we wrap up today, first, I’d like to say a quick thank you love the conversation. And second, I want to give you an opportunity to give our audience a key takeaway, or potentially a task or a little piece of homework, maybe for them to think about as they finish the podcast today.

Speaker 2 36:13
Well, thank you, Adam, for having me. I’ve enjoyed my time with you all, in our class. And on our webinars, we always assign homework. So that is what I’m going to do today. I want you the listener, to pick one of the five reflective listening skills. And if you need a refresher, you can listen to it again, or we even have a podcast or a webinar on how to be a better listener. I think it’s a webinar, pick one of them and start to concentrate. Think about how you can employ it in your conversations in your relationships. And don’t beat yourself up. If you mess up. We call it the Cha Cha we move to step forward and one step back. Just make it a part of the dance. Don’t get too upset about falling back, just make you gracefully move forward again, because every time you move back and then you you counter that by moving two steps forward, you’re actually making progress.

Adam Salgat 37:17
That’s wonderful advice. And maybe I’ll drop a little dance music.

Speaker 2 37:21
I like it. If you ask anybody. I am always up for turning on dance music.

Adam Salgat 37:28
Awesome. Well, duly again, thank you for taking the time and joining us on the podcast. We really appreciate everything you do for our community listens and I appreciate your passion.

Unknown Speaker 37:37
My pleasure. Thank you.

Adam Salgat 37:41
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