In this podcast, Adam J. Salgat sits down with Katie and Jonathan Trotter, facilitators in Michigan who have started a communication skills training focused on helping marriages.
We learn how this class came to be, what makes it different from the traditional CST training and hear success stories of those who have taken the course. Katie also gives a couple of quick tips on how to improve communication with your spouse.
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Adam Salgat:
Hello, and welcome to the Our Community Listens podcast. My name is Adam Salgat, and with me today are Katie and Jonathan Trotter. Both Katie and Jonathan have been facilitators in Michigan for just over three years. The two of them have been instrumental in starting Our Community Listens communications training with a marriage focus, which held its first session in October of last year. First of all, thank you both for being a part of the podcast today.
Jonathan Trotter:
Thank you for having us.
Adam Salgat:
Katie, can you tell me a little bit about where the idea for a class geared around marriage came from?
Katie Trotter:
Yeah, as Jonathan and I were teaching classes over the years, we would often hear participants kind of processing through the information and the skills and talking about how they really felt like it had a lot of value, but the common theme seemed to be that for many, the idea of implementing them in their marriage dynamics seemed to be the one that was the most daunting to people, and that kind of bugged me. So when we started diving in a little bit more deeply, what we started to find is that the alumni who went through were saying, “We’ve just been ingrained in this pattern for so many years of our marriage,” that as they’re trying to implement these new skills when their partner’s not really aware of the same changes and skills, that they felt like they weren’t starting on equal footing.
And we know that in general, for two married spouses to go through in the same class, isn’t always the best idea for them to kind of process through all of the information and have the full experience, so we really started looking at ways that they could both be going through at the same time, but in separate classroom experiences.
Adam Salgat:
Interesting. I heard you mentioned in there that it bugged you a little bit, and that’s kind of my follow-up question to Jonathan. Jonathan, in your pre-interview response, you illustrated this idea came from Katie’s passion, and I was just wondering if you could talk about that a little bit?
Jonathan Trotter:
Sure. It’s amazing to see Kate’s passion for marriages succeed, and as we would facilitate the non-marriage focus classes, we would hear a lot of feedback from participants that went through, and we would hear feedback from those same participants about trying to implement this with their spouse, some having success, some not having success. And Kate will literally lie awake at night and say something to the effect of, “I wonder how so-and-so is doing with this?”, and she will recall an issue that one of the participants had talked about they’re having with their spouse, and she will consistently think and worry about some of these participants and what they’re going through. And her passion for wanting to see that succeed, I think, is what allowed her to have this vision of they’re going to have a greater chance of success, if both of these partners have been through the class, they can see where the other person is coming from, rather than just one.
Adam Salgat:
Yeah. So Katie, it definitely sounds like you mentioned this too, about your passion for marriage. And can you talk a little bit about how that passion has fueled the reason that you find it very important to have this class in the community?
Katie Trotter:
I believe that marriage matters. I believe that when you pick a person to spend the rest of your life with, it’s a decision, but it’s just one decision, and every day, couples are provided with these multiple different opportunities to connect, and to either utilize these skills to grow stronger relationships, or to turn away from and not have that connection. And I feel like drawing awareness to all of those small opportunities that you have to strengthen your marriage, can be really helpful for people who aren’t intentionally doing it wrong, right?
Adam Salgat:
Right.
Katie Trotter:
We have good intentions, we’re constantly trying to connect with this person that is so important to us, but those misconnections can be really painful. And so, if we have skills that could help with that, why would we not share that with more people?
Adam Salgat:
Absolutely, and giving the opportunity to have them go through the class at the same time, I’m sure is part of why you felt like this was important. Katie, can you talk a little bit about the benefit of having them do it at the same time? Expand on that a little bit.
Katie Trotter:
Yeah, I think part of it is that as you go through the course over the three days, you start to have all of this awareness of how maybe the regular patterns that you’re used to doing when you’re communicating with your spouse, might be causing some additional distance, or disconnect, or conflict that wouldn’t be there if you could start learning a new way of doing it. So if you go back to your marriage after three days of having this awareness, and wanting to do a new behavior, and you spring that on someone who’s not used to you having this changed behavior, or even an understanding of where it’s coming from or what your intent is, I think it can be really confusing sometimes for that spouse. So the fact that they can have that awareness together, that common language at the same time, kind of wrestle through that material together, I think can be really helpful.
Adam Salgat:
Awesome. Jonathan, can you touch on how this class is a little bit different from the three day traditional Our Community Listens communications training?
Jonathan Trotter:
The class content is the same as far as the actual CST material. Some of the things that have been added to that, this has been done from Katie’s passion for this, she has spent, I can’t imagine how many hours of research that she has poured into this to find different studies that connect and overlap with the CST material and help strengthen that material. And so, while the material is the same, we often will challenge participants to look at it through a family lens, where in a traditional class, they are challenged often sometimes more in a work lens on how to lead people in the workplace, and how to lead an organization or something like that.
In some instances, Kate and I will typically offer stories or share experiences from both lenses, but the marriage focus class really shares a lot of experiences and stories, and relatable kind of how-tos and how this can look in a family setting when you are leading a family, or a partner, or children, or siblings, or whatever that looks like, when you’re living in the same space with people. What does this look like, and how does that look different than it does when you’re working in the same space?
Adam Salgat:
Katie, Jonathan touched on it slightly. Can you tell me about that research that you’ve done, and what you have pulled into this course?
Katie Trotter:
Yeah, I will say, Adam, I don’t know if this is helpful, from a DISC profile standpoint, my primary tendency is the S, but I do have some C tendencies, so I always love it when data can actually support all of the things that feel really good relationally for people.
Adam Salgat:
Sure, absolutely.
Katie Trotter:
So we started looking at, does this have merit, right? Is there value in how these skills are aligning? We’re hearing all the stories from alumni who are talking about the great impacts on marriage, but it was helpful for me to dive into research to really say, “Is there anything to back that up?” And so, we started looking at Dr. John Gottman and Dr. Julie Gottman. So Dr. Julie Gottman is a family counselor, and Dr. John Gottman is really, he’s a scientist, but he studies relationships from a scientific lens. And through his research, what we started to find is that he could actually get to the point of predicting divorce rates with over 90% accuracy, after observing the way that couples communicated with each other, which is scary. He actually mentioned in one of his podcasts that it made it very unpopular for people to invite him to dinner parties, because everyone was worried that he might [inaudible 00:08:25].
Adam Salgat:
Yeah. I mean, people would have a hard time if he sat in the room with me, and then I just looked over at him and he had a frown on his face, I’d be like, “Well, I’m doomed. We’re doomed. This is not going to go well, I guess.”
Katie Trotter:
Yeah, and the thing that was really exciting for me as we started diving into his research, is that there was so much alignment behind the skills being taught in the three day communications class, and with what his findings were for the couples that had success in their marriages moving forward. What also found is that all of the signs of people who were feeling like they were not in a good place, and he calls him the masters and disasters, of the people who were headed down that path, maybe the less desirable path in their communication skills, there were great concrete things that they could do to correct that. And so, that also provided a lot of hope for me, knowing that what we’re teaching not only aligned with how do we set people up for success in their marriage relationship, but also to know that even if you’re not there right now, there’s a lot of science behind the fact that it’s not too late to be able to turn that direction.
Adam Salgat:
That’s awesome to hear. So you’ve taken some of that information, and is that part of the presentation that you give and part of the information that you’ll put in front of those that take part in the marriage class?
Katie Trotter:
Yeah, so the actual structure of the day, you will get to eat breakfast with your spouse, and then you both go to separate classrooms to experience the same content that comes from the regular three day course. Then at each lunch session, we get to do a highlight of some of Dr. Gottman findings, so we get to highlight a different portion of it, give a little quick activity that they get to do together, and then they again go back to their separate rooms for the next module. And then at the end of the day, one of the other things that’s really neat is that they get to take their homework assignments, and we get to tailor them around activities that they can do intentionally with their spouse to practice the skills.
Adam Salgat:
Okay, that’s interesting, because I remember like we’ve talked about a little bit in the three day course, I’d leave on the first day or the second day, and I’d most of the time go straight home, but as Jonathan mentioned, oftentimes I did think about, “How does this relate to my work life?”, a little bit first, but the people I head home to are also very important to me, the communication that we have, the relationship we have. You have tailored some of these assignments for spouses to do together though. Do you have an example of any of those?
Katie Trotter:
Yeah. So I think you may remember, Adam, that from one of the classes, you have an assignment in there to talk about your actual DISC profile. You get these multiple pages of an inner look at how you tend to behave naturally, and instead of just going and maybe sharing that with a coworker or with your supervisor, we’ve set this up where you not only share your profile with your partner, but we have some guided questions to really open up some dialogue and discussion around maybe parts of yourself that you wish your partner had a better understanding of, maybe parts that you didn’t see the same way, to have some good open discussion about what that looks like, and then they get to talk about how do those two different tendencies play out together in our day-to-day interactions?
Adam Salgat:
Gotcha.
Katie Trotter:
The other thing is that on day two, we have a homework assignment where you’re practicing some of that reflective listening, and with this, we actually got to pull some practice questions from Dr. Gottman that they use to kind of help you better learn different things about your spouse. And one of the things that was really exciting for me, we had a couple come back the next day who had been married, I think it was almost 40 years, I think they’re 38 or 39, and she said, “I learned more about my spouse last night than I have in our entire marriage, because I finally learned how to hear what he wanted to say.” And I thought that that was just a beautiful moment of how even though we can spend a large amount of time with a person, that we’re never done learning something new about them.
Adam Salgat:
That is a beautiful story, and I’m sure when you get to hear that kind of feedback, I mean, I have a guess, but how does it make you feel? On a personal level, how does that make you feel knowing that the effort that you’ve put into this is making a difference?
Katie Trotter:
I think it’s hopeful, for me. Like Jonathan mentioned, we get to hear a lot of different stories, both the good, the difficult, and the hilarious is how I like to say it, that people are going through, and for me to hear people in this relationship that is so important to them have those successes, it just gives you a tremendous amount of hope.
Adam Salgat:
What about you, Jonathan? How does it make you feel when someone comes back to you after your first day or second day, or even a couple months later? Because as I mentioned at the beginning, the first course was last October. If you’ve had any success stories come back to you, how does it make you feel, Jonathan?
Jonathan Trotter:
We have had quite a few people reach back out, and to answer that question, Adam, actually, it’s twofold. Hopeful, like Kate said, from the standpoint of seeing the people in class and hearing the struggles, and then hearing from them later about some success stories of, “Hey, we pushed through this part,” or “I actually feel understood by my spouse for the first time ever. They actually just sat and listened to me, let me talk and tell how I felt, or express how I feel without being judged.” Stuff like that has been awesome to hear, and hopeful. It also makes me extremely proud of Kate for being able to put this stuff together, and pull the research in and have this vision of just this dream and the ability to actually pull it all together and make it happen is pretty awesome.
Adam Salgat:
That’s great. That’s great to hear, and I will say, I helped with some of the marketing when it came to the first marriage course, and I believe I got a number of random emails, “Hey, what about this?”, and “Hey, what about that?” from Katie, and it was a blast because I could kind of tell that she wanted this to really catch on, and that only made me work a little harder. So Katie, tell me about how many courses you guys have completed thus far, and what’s the future look like for this particular program underneath Our Community Listens?
Katie Trotter:
Absolutely. In 2019, we held two of the marriage classes so far. We have another one that is scheduled March 6 through 8. We do still have, I believe about four spots left, if there are still people who are interested, but that one’s kind of nearing capacity. And then we have one additional one scheduled for 2020, which will be April 17 through 19. One of the other things that’s kind of exciting for those two classes in 2019 and the two classes in 2020, is that we have actually been able to develop some great continuous learning sessions and opportunities. So that now that the class is done, not only do they still have the ongoing support that Our Community Listens supplies to their general alumni base, but we also get to pull in some of those extra resources again, to make sure that with that marriage lens continuing, that we can help support them throughout the year.
Adam Salgat:
Spectacular.
Katie, do you have any quick tips, first of all, for people who might be going through some communications issues with a spouse? I’m not looking for you to divulge a lot of detail, but any just quick bullet points that might help someone down the path of a healthy communication relationship?
Katie Trotter:
You mean besides attending the class?
Adam Salgat:
Yes, besides attending the class.
Katie Trotter:
Yeah, I will say, I mean, there are obviously a lot of skills that are taught directly within the class. I will say personally, some of the things that I have found the most helpful, is to always have an understanding that you and your spouse have different needs and values. So anytime you are approaching a conversation, there’s a good chance that you are both approaching it with good intent, but from a very different perspective, and I think keeping that in mind just allows people to extend a little bit more grace and space right off the bat, to kind of work through some of those things.
And I will also agree strongly with Dr. Gottman, that humor can be really helpful in those moments where you and your spouse are fumbling through, trying to find a way to connect with each other. So I would say humor is key, giving grace and space to understand that you and your spouse are just going to be different in some ways, and then the more that you can listen, listen, and listen some more, in all of those moments where you are tempted to talk, I think that that can all go a really long way.
Adam Salgat:
As we start to wrap up our conversation today, Katie, is there anything else you would like to add?
Katie Trotter:
Yes, I have had people who have asked me, who we are targeting, from who should attend the class? And I will say that regardless of how long you have been married, how easy or difficult you find communicating with your partner to be, if you are in that committed relationship, the class will be of great benefit. So we have had people, like I’ve mentioned, who’ve been married for almost 40 years and are loving this phase of life. We’ve had newlyweds who talked about how helpful they felt like this to have early on. We’ve had people come in feeling like, “We just need hope that we might learn a new way to do something different,” and we’ve had couples who are just entering into the retirement phase, looking at each other like, “Holy cow, we have a lot more time together that we are not used to having.” And regardless of what phase of marriage they were in, they all walked away feeling like they were better off than they came in.
Adam Salgat:
Well, I’d like to thank you… I should probably reflectively respond to that. It’s truly inspiring to hear the comments that you just made, that everyone, no matter what phase they’re in, they’re looking to better themselves, and they’re looking to create a relationship around them that they really, truly want to be a part of, and that they want to make sure is long-lasting.
Katie Trotter:
Beautifully done.
Adam Salgat:
If someone is interested in taking part in the Our Community Listens communications training with a marriage focus, how can they get some more information, and where could they possibly register?
Katie Trotter:
They can register at the website ourcommunitylistens.org, by going to apply for a class. If they want more specific information on the class with the marriage focus, they can reach me over email at katie.trotter@ourcommunitylistens.orgm, and I’d be happy to answer any questions they might have.
Adam Salgat:
All right, thanks so much. Katie and Jonathan, it’s been a pleasure having you on the podcast today. Thank you for taking time for joining me.
Katie Trotter:
Thanks for having us.
Jonathan Trotter:
Thanks, Adam.
Adam Salgat:
All right, and the music will play, and we’ll say goodbye. Okay.
Jonathan Trotter:
Do you want us to sing?
Adam Salgat:
If you want to, you’re welcome to, I won’t say nothing.
Katie Trotter:
Did you pick out a theme song for us?
Adam Salgat:
No, everybody gets the same music.
Katie Trotter:
Oh.
Adam Salgat:
Sorry.
If you have any suggestions about subjects for our podcast, feel free to reach out through our Facebook page, and if you’re interested in taking a class, visit ourcommunitylistens.org. Thank you again for listening to our podcast, and don’t forget, each word, each action, each silent moment of listening sends a message. Therefore, you are the message.