The key to giving helpful feedback is to first be able to receive feedback. What?! Sharon Clement Our Community Listens Facilitator, coaches us through how to receive first and then give meaningful feedback. If we want the feedback we give to others to be meaningful and inspire growth and change then we first have to be able to receive and apply feedback ourselves.
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Speaker 1:
Welcome to the OCL podcast. Our vision is to create people-centered leaders at home, at work and in our communities who lead through the powerful lens of empathetic listening. Our podcast will help refresh your skills and sharpen your tools as we do the important work of truly human leadership together.
Adam Salgat:
Hello and welcome to the, Our Community Listens podcast. My name is Adam Salgat, and I’m here today with Sharon Clement, an OCL professor. Welcome back, Sharon.
Sharon Clement:
Hi, Adam. It’s good to be back.
Adam Salgat:
Today, Sharon and I are going to discuss feedback. Sharon, can you give me a definition for us to work with on feedback?
Sharon Clement:
Absolutely. The way we look at feedback in OCL is, it is giving specific information about specific behavior and its impact, and the purpose of it is for reinforcement. We want to reinforce good behavior and then kind of take care of the behavior that’s causing a problem, to understand behavior. Why am I doing what I’m doing? And then also as a leader, why are my people doing what they’re doing to bring about continuous improvement? Feedback is a great tool for that. And along with that to bring about change of some sort.
Adam Salgat:
Okay. So Sharon, looking through your notes for this podcast, I kind of expected us to first start talking about how do we give that quality feedback? Because I think that’s where a lot of people’s minds go immediately, but you want to tackle this a little bit differently. You want to take on a different angle.
Sharon Clement:
I do. We’re actually going to talk about exactly the opposite. I’m going to touch a little bit on giving feedback, but I want to move into how difficult it is to receive feedback. And then we’ll come back at the end of this to giving it with a little bit different understanding. How’s that?
Adam Salgat:
That sounds good.
Sharon Clement:
All right, here we go. First thing is, what makes receiving feedback difficult? I’m going to throw that question at you. What would be some reasons that would be tough to hear feedback?
Adam Salgat:
From my perspective and the work that I’ve done over the years, especially for videography work, it’s oftentimes because I’ve put kind of heart and soul into a project. So if they don’t like it, it can feel like a personal attack or general feedback sometimes feels personal as an attack on who I am as a person.
Sharon Clement:
Sure. You’ve touched on some really good ones. Adam, there’s a few others. Sometimes, well, it exposes our vulnerabilities. It could exceed my span of control or influence. For example, I really might not have the capacity to change that. And in that case, I’m going to be frustrated. Right? Another thing is, it can exhaust my ability to change. Let me just say that at this stage of my life, I was kind of hoping to not have to invest a lot of time in personal growth. So I do have a limited amount of energy and I have to make sure that I’m still within that capacity when I tackle something like this that involves responding to feedback. Does that help?
Adam Salgat:
Yeah, absolutely.
Sharon Clement:
So, clearly there’re some obstacles to overcome, if we’re going to be genuinely open to feedback and the benefits that we can derive from it. One of the big problems with feedback, and again, we’ll develop this a little bit more later is how we give it and how it’s given to us. I want you to think of most companies right now, the standard protocol for feedback is that basically annual or semi-annual review.
Adam Salgat:
Yup. That’s one of the biggest.
Sharon Clement:
So all of this information is stored up and then it’s delivered in this grueling, usually dreaded review session, right?
Adam Salgat:
Yeah. That’s for sure. I’ve been through good ones. I’ve been through bad ones and sometimes it makes you go, that’s so long ago, why wasn’t this brought up before? And you really wish it could have been addressed at the time.
Sharon Clement:
Exactly. So, the possible benefits, the potential benefit of feedback is really negated when we do it this way. So what we want to do is we want to realize that even though this is the format we have rigidly adhered to, despite the fact that it’s often nonproductive and sometimes demoralizing, we need to come up with another way to handle feedback. Right?
Adam Salgat:
Yeah. So do you have something you can offer up? Are you going to change the world?
Sharon Clement:
Yeah. Well, I’m not sure if I’m going to change the world, we’re going to work at it here.
Adam Salgat:
I simply, when I say that, I guess I mean, what kind of feedback process would you suggest? What is a better way to go about it?
Sharon Clement:
Oh, let’s talk about that. But before we delve into it, can we talk about how to receive it?
Adam Salgat:
Yes. Let’s talk about the better way to receive the feedback.
Sharon Clement:
There we go, because I feel like once we have that perspective, it allows us to go into giving feedback with more compassion and empathy. So, let’s look at receiving feedback. In a study for the book, Difficult Conversations, the authors asked to people, what situations make for difficult conversations. Feedback, made the list 100% of the time. It wasn’t so much how to give it. Really few of us have a problem with giving feedback. It was how to receive it. And here’s the fact, we’re constantly receiving feedback from the people around us. I’m going to give you a quick example. When we have social gatherings or family outings, as soon as I take the stage to tell one of what I consider my genuinely humorous stories,
Adam Salgat:
I’ve been there.
Sharon Clement:
I’m getting feedback from my spouse and my kids. Trust me, if I look at their faces, I could see varying degrees of fear, apprehension, embarrassment, and then depending on how the story goes, I’ll either get some approval or some chagrin or some genuine embarrassment. That’s feedback. We get it constantly, right? It’s not the way we think of feedback normally, but it is feedback. It’s just poorly delivered and in many cases unconscious. So, that makes it difficult to receive it. What we want to think about is how can I receive feedback? Whether it’s poorly delivered or well delivered. How can I look for the good in it? What prevents me from seeing the good right away? What hinders me from immediately grasping the benefit of feedback?
Adam Salgat:
You said something in there that I know we’re going to get to, but it really excites me when you talk about, what prevents me from seeing the good in it. So we’ll get to it.
Sharon Clement:
We will, we will let’s look at the anatomy of it a little bit. The same people that did the research for this book, Crucial Conversations, have come up with this study that shows that there are actually triggers associated with receiving feedback. So here’s the main ones, these were described in a Ted talk by Sheila Hayne. She’s an executive counselor from the Harvard Law School. The first one is, and I think this will sound intuitive to you. The first one is, truth triggers. Is there truth in the feedback I’m hearing? How much truth is there? Did I really do what they’re saying? Or did I really not do what they’re saying? So the key here is, how healthy is my self awareness? Am I able to assess that truth to find that in a valid way? Or am I a little bit biased in how I’m looking at it?
We’ll develop that in a couple of minutes. The other triggers is, relationship triggers. So all feedback lives in the relationship between the giver and the receiver. That’s pretty profound. In a touchy relationship, in a difficult relationship. We react more to the person than we do to the message.
Adam Salgat:
That’s interesting.
Sharon Clement:
Yeah.
Adam Salgat:
Yeah.
Sharon Clement:
So that can make finding the truth in feedback really difficult when we’re clouded with a bias or a perspective towards a person. And the last one is an identity trigger. What does this feedback say about me as a person? You touched on that when you talked about pouring yourself into a project and having someone reject it so to speak.
Adam Salgat:
Yeah, absolutely.
Sharon Clement:
You take that personally. It hits you where you live. Right?
Adam Salgat:
You can. Yeah. The one thing I’ve noticed a little bit between the way I take feedback and the way that my wife, for example, seems to take feedback, she’s tends to lean towards the negative. And I tend to lean towards the, okay, I’m to spin this into my positive. How quick can I make it positive and fix what’s being assessed. I know she’s been given certain feedback over time and it’s taken her some time longer than it normally takes me, which has been a revelation in my mind that everyone is different. But it’s taken her some time to spin that around to positive and find and want to make the change. So what kind of differences might there be going on between the two of us or has anyone ever put that in perspective about how she’s taking that feedback and how I’m taking that feedback?
Sharon Clement:
Yes. You know what? I want to just refer for a minute to the disc profile that we use as our assessment tool in our three-day class on communication. One of the big things that comes out in that is the differences in each one of us, even though, as people we share so much alike, there are differences in how we view things and in how we express ourselves. Same thing happens with feedback, and it isn’t right or wrong, your way isn’t better, her way isn’t better. It just is what it is. Right? But understanding, like you said, the difference and where you are in it is key to getting the benefits from feedback. So let me talk a little bit about that. What we use is, we call it a scale of self. So, if you can picture a line, we’re going to call it a self-awareness line. Okay?
Adam Salgat:
Okay.
Sharon Clement:
And at the low end is low self-esteem. Up at the high end is high self-esteem. So at the low end, in this low self-esteem, is the person who tends to focus more on their weak areas. They see themselves usually as less than they actually are. We tend to feel like we’re incompetent. We don’t really have a very good view of how others see us or how we really are. Now, at the other end of that spectrum is the person who sees themselves in terms of their strengths, whether they’re real or perceived. This person thinks that they pretty much got it nailed, they’re doing it right, they don’t realize when maybe they aren’t meeting a need or where they have a weakness. And of course in the middle of that line, is that healthy balance. That self-awareness where we can realistically assess both our strengths and our weaknesses. Are you with me?
Adam Salgat:
Yes.
Sharon Clement:
Okay. So, what happens with that is, where we are on that scale is a really good indicator of how we’re going to handle feedback. If we’re fairly confident, feedback’s going to be easier to handle, and we’re going to be more apt to see that as a tool for improvement. If we’re not quite as sure of ourselves, feedback can be tough to take, it feels very personal. So, like in my case, I tend to focus more on my weaknesses and feedback can feel critical and demoralizing to me. I can take it personally. So, that’s pretty much where I live. I have to work hard and I have to work consciously to realize that the feedback is a constructive tool and not a personal attack.
Adam Salgat:
I believe my wife kind of sits in that same area as well. And she got some feedback at one point that really put her in the box, heightened her emotions and at the time of getting that feedback was devastated. Like I mentioned a little bit before, it took her maybe a month to really work through all of it and start turning that around, to the point where she was now using it as the fuel that most of us would expect. But for her, and that doesn’t make it bad, it just took her a little bit longer to process it, to put it in that way, because she initially took it as a lot of personal attack. And you mentioned earlier too, about relationship, the relationship that she had with the person she was receiving the feedback from, may not be the strongest. So, that’s something that might improve the feedback in the future too.
Sharon Clement:
Absolutely. And I’m going to go out on a limb and say, you probably had a little bit of trouble understanding your wife’s way of handling feedback, didn’t you?
Adam Salgat:
Yeah. Yes, absolutely true. And it’s difficult because I think it’s a lot of people in general, the natural thing is to just want to… You want to fix it, right? You just want to help. You want to make her realize you are awesome. You are great at what you do, except that you are awesome. Move into that space and do what you know you can do. Don’t worry about what some of this feedback and these numbers came back and said, because you know you’re better than that. But it’s hard as a spouse to sit and wait for them to get to that point because you know it’ll happen, but you just want it to happen quicker because you believe it, right?
Sharon Clement:
Yes. But if you remember, I’m going to give you a short quiz here. What’s the best thing you can do standing alongside someone who’s processing through that?
Adam Salgat:
Be there, listen. Just be there for them, know that they’re not alone. Because, yeah I know she’ll get there. So…
Sharon Clement:
Yeah. Yeah. And if we need to process that in our own way. So, on the flip side of that, the person at the other end of the spectrum, and you might sometimes be this person, I’m not sure.
Adam Salgat:
I could, yeah. Certain times I’m sure I could.
Sharon Clement:
You can be slightly insensitive to feedback like, well, my goodness, no, I did that all right. There’s no reason I need to improve here. Right?
Adam Salgat:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s happened, I tried to sit in the middle, but yeah, we all kind of have our ego that we maybe, forget to keep in check. And at certain times when we’re heightened, we respond more dramatically in the other way, as opposed to potentially breaking down and crying, I’m screaming and yelling and letting them know that they’re wrong. And, that’s not the healthiest either. So…
Sharon Clement:
So, I’m hoping that you’re seeing that the key here is balance, right? Both extremes are going to be detrimental. All right. The best place is to try and work through wherever we are to get to that healthy balance point. And I loved one of the things in my research on this was, and this is kind of where I’m at, in that I tend to look for my flaws. So if I were to Google Sharon’s flaws, right? I’m going to come up with a million hits. My husband’s going to have some things in there. My kids will have pages and pages of things. I’m sure. But the fact is I will see those flaws. Right?
Adam Salgat:
Yes.
Sharon Clement:
Now, here’s the key. If I were to change the search terms and Google Sharon’s accomplishments, what am I going to see? A completely different set of results. So we change the search terms. When we receive feedback. We reprogram that instead of looking how it addressed our flaws, look for the way it can build our strength. So, and in the other end of that, instead of looking for how it augments what I’m doing, maybe find the spot where I could make this even better.
Adam Salgat:
Yeah. That would be, I think sometimes that’s forgotten about when we get feedback, we look at the, maybe the bad, but there’s good stuff in there. And how can we amplify it?
Sharon Clement:
Yes. Yes. So again, the key is balance. So now, I’ve got you in the right frame of mind.
Adam Salgat:
Yep.
Sharon Clement:
All right. Are you ready to hear how we can actually set up an actual conversation where someone’s giving me feedback?
Adam Salgat:
Yeah. That’d be great. Why don’t you go through a few guidelines for something like that.
Sharon Clement:
Okay. The first thing we want to do is, I’m about to receive feedback, right? You just came in and called me in your office and you’re going to give me some feedback on my performance.
Adam Salgat:
Sure.
Sharon Clement:
So what I want to do is, I want to use the power of the pause. This is important. Don’t be quick to react. Take a moment, think through it, be calm. Then I want to assume positive intent. I am quite certain that you did not sit up all night last night, trying to figure out how you could demoralize me. Now, sometimes I can have that attitude, get rid of that, assume positive intent on the part of the person who’s giving you the feedback. Okay? Realize that the way I receive it is a model for you. So here’s the key. Here’s why I wanted to talk about how we receive feedback. If as a leader, I’m going to give feedback to my people. The way I received feedback is exactly the way they’re going to receive feedback. So if I could receive it with a positive manner, if I could see the benefit, I am modeling that for my people, for the people I lead. Right?
Adam Salgat:
Yeah, absolutely and I think that’s really, a really good statement.
Sharon Clement:
Yeah. That’s powerful. So we’ve done these three things. We know we have the power of the pause. We’re assuming positive intent. We know our modeling. Now, we’re going to listen.
Adam Salgat:
Yeah. That key word.
Sharon Clement:
You’re used to hearing that. Aren’t you? It comes up a lot in OCL conversations. We’re going to start right here with listening. We’re going to use those listening skills. We’re going to clear that whiteboard of our mind, we’re going to be silent. We’re going to use attentive behavior. We’re going to use door openers. We are going to be completely and totally receptive to what the person is telling us, who’s giving us the feedback. Right? No judgment, just acceptance. Just openness and curiosity. So I’m listening, next I want to ask for clarification. This can be in the form of a reflective response, or you can just ask them, make sure you understand what they’re saying. Here’s another key. Remember you might, at this point, both be in the box. Emotions can be escalating. Keep that in mind, stay calm. Recognize their courage in coming to you. It can take a lot for a person to give you feedback.
Adam Salgat:
Okay. Even if they’re expected to in their job position?
Sharon Clement:
Yeah. Yeah. In my capacity as a supervisor, it still goes against my people-pleasing nature to give feedback. It’s tough. So for somebody to acknowledge that and recognize the courage it takes to do that is a huge affirmation and it kind of changes the tone of the whole conversation. So record what you remember. For me, this is critical. As soon as you can write down what you remember from that conversation. Reflect before you respond. Have you ever written an email and let it sit for 24 hours and realized you can never send it?
Adam Salgat:
I have written responses and let them sit for awhile. Re-read and reframed.
Sharon Clement:
Yeah. So reflect before you respond on it. This one, practice self care. All right. I didn’t mention this before, but sometimes really bad feedback can send me into the kitchen, eating a half gallon of ice cream and a bunch of chocolate.
Adam Salgat:
Yeah. I don’t blame you there. Or some kind of binge from the gas station or a couple of extra candy bars.
Sharon Clement:
So just be aware that you’re in an emotional situation, take care of yourself and then take it to somebody you trust. This helps with that genuine self-awareness. Okay? It helps you see the truth in the feedback that they gave you. Circle back, with the person who gave you the feedback to close that loop, and then act on it. Once you found that kernel of truth, and you realize that an action is going to be beneficial, do it, don’t put it on the side and lose it.
Adam Salgat:
I heard you refer to that before as use it or lose it. When I read that, and I saw that, I really liked it because to me it said, is the feedback valuable? What can I take from it? Let’s use it. Is the feedback valuable. It’s not necessarily pushing me to do anything differently or making me refocus. I need to lose it. You either use it or you lose it and letting go of it can be difficult, but it is necessary.
Sharon Clement:
Yeah. And again, let’s tie back to the very beginning of this. We are receiving feedback in a way that models it for the people that are going to be on the other side of the table. All right? So, if I’m willing to be accountable and act on the feedback, then I can expect my people to act on the feedback that I give them in the future.
Adam Salgat:
I think I’m all set in the idea of how to properly receive feedback or the right way to put me in the right state of mind to receive feedback. What can you tell me about giving feedback?
Sharon Clement:
All right. Let’s work on that. First of all, let’s remember that we’ve been on the flip side of it, where we were the receiver. Right? That’s why we talked about that first.
Adam Salgat:
Yep.
Sharon Clement:
So keeping that in mind, I want us to be able to remember what it’s like to be in that other person’s chair. So use that mindset to approach them with humility, respect, and consideration. That starts by preparing well for the conversation and effective confrontation. I know you took the three-day class. One of the things that we do before we ever go into confrontation is, we assess our motive. Do I really need to have this confrontation? And then once I’ve determined that I do, I pull out the specific feelings, behavior, and impact so that I’m dealing with logic, not emotion. Right?
Adam Salgat:
That’s correct. Yep. And we’ve done podcasts on that in the past.
Sharon Clement:
Beautiful. That is the exact same thing that we’re going to do here with feedback. We’re going to look at the specific behavior and the impact, the outcome that we desire from the change we’re requesting.
Adam Salgat:
Awesome.
Sharon Clement:
So that’s going to help us keep that emotion manageable and it helps us stay focused when we go into this conversation. All right? So with those things in mind, here’s how we give feedback.
Adam Salgat:
Okay.
Sharon Clement:
Motive, motive, motive. Do you really need to give the feedback? Is it genuinely going to be beneficial or are you just venting about something that’s annoying you?
Adam Salgat:
It’s a good point.
Sharon Clement:
Yeah. So once you’ve assessed that, and that’s your focus point and you know what you’re looking for, you can go into the actual session where you give the feedback. Timing is critical. If you’re addressing a specific event, give that feedback as soon as possible, it’s much more effective, but don’t do it in the heat of the moment.
Adam Salgat:
Makes sense.
Sharon Clement:
Yeah. You’re going to detract from the potential benefits. On the flip side, don’t keep it repressed for a year for that annual review. Okay?
Adam Salgat:
Right.
Sharon Clement:
Keep it simple, focused and interactive. I love this part. I never thought about that. Don’t take control of the conversation. The more involvement, the more engaged they are in this conversation, the more they will own the outcome.
Adam Salgat:
That’s cool. That’s a good point too. And something I had never really thought about.
Sharon Clement:
Yeah. Be open to what they have to offer in terms of that solution. You know the desired outcome. They may even have a better way to get there than what you originally thought of.
Adam Salgat:
Okay.
Sharon Clement:
So base your feedback on your own observations, not on hearsay. When you introduce judgment and opinion, you reduce the possible benefits of that conversation. This is about a specific behavior, not about your personal feelings and opinions. So keep that in mind and express yourself in a caring, concerned, and respectful manner. So, along with that, use it or lose it thing, follow up. This does a number of things. It shows, first of all, that you’re genuinely concerned. It provides the other with a chance for accountability and it affirms your credibility. You’re going to stay on top of things. If you just disappear after you give the feedback, there’s very little incentive for them to exert the effort to improve. Right? And finally, Adam, remember your modeling. Be prepared for them in this session to give you feedback to your feedback. I mean, it happens. Right?
Adam Salgat:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you have to be open to it and you’re asking them to be open when they come in. So you need to be open too.
Sharon Clement:
Model it. The more concern you show for your people, the more concern they will have for you. And the more they will genuinely want to work with you.
Adam Salgat:
So how does feedback really sit into what we need as humans? What does it tie into?
Sharon Clement:
What does it hit us?
Adam Salgat:
Yeah.
Sharon Clement:
Yeah. Because I’ve thought of that myself because it’s like, geez, if there’s so many benefits to this, what makes it difficult? Well, here’s the deal, feedback sits at the junction of two basic human needs. First of all, we want to continue to learn and grow. Right? Most of us in some way, shape or form want to improve. But there’s this other basic need where we want to be needed, respected and loved for who we are right now, right here. And feedback basically says, Oh, you could use some improvement.
Adam Salgat:
Right.
Sharon Clement:
So it can feel like criticism.
Adam Salgat:
Yeah. And I can see how that goes against what people are feeling.
Sharon Clement:
Yeah. It’s tough. That’s what makes it tough. We want that impetus for growth, but we don’t want to hear a criticism of who we are or what we might be doing. So, here’s the key, feedback can be the single most useful tool, in our tool bag, when it comes to growth, but it can be excruciatingly painful. When you shared the story about your wife. And I explained to you, that’s kind of where I live. It can take a lot to get past that, to find the benefit in it. It’s worth it. It is worth it. I would encourage everyone out there, when you have the chance, when someone gives you feedback, genuinely use it as a tool for growth. And I think about that when we do our classes. We have a survey at the end of every one. The surveys are difficult for me because I take everything personally.
But by working with the people around me, with my co professors, I have come to see that if I want to be the best possible professor that I can be, to give the most to the participants. It’s important for me to look at that feedback, to find the truth in it, to set aside the personal feelings that I might’ve taken out of it and to grow in what I can offer to that class. Does that make sense?
Adam Salgat:
Absolutely.
Sharon Clement:
So I guess what I want to do now is just kind of wrap this up and I want to say that, feedback is incredibly relevant. You have to give it, as we encourage you in all of our relationship work, with humility, with respect, with concern for the other person. You have to be willing to listen when you’re in the process of giving and receiving feedback.
And I would challenge everybody out there right now, if you’re really in the mood for some growth, go to somebody close to you and ask, what is one thing I can do to impact our relationship in a positive way? Be open. Okay. Now personally, I know I can count on my spouse, my kids and my mom to give me some feedback here and give me ways that I can grow. But seriously, go in, be open, be curious, let the personal stuff fall on the side. Realistically, realistically, look at what they’re asking. Can it really bring about a benefit? Can it reinforce the connection? Can it help that relationship grow to an even deeper level? Can it empower and affirm another human being? Those are all of the things that feedback can do for us.
Adam Salgat:
Well, Sharon I will give you a little bit of feedback right now to close this podcast, this subject and your knowledge on it. And your encouragement here has been inspirational and very helpful. So thank you.
Sharon Clement:
You’re welcome, Adam. And thank you for the chance to talk about this.
Adam Salgat:
Alumni, don’t forget if you have any questions about our podcast or you want to share any stories or impact stories about feedback. Please get in touch with us through our Facebook page and don’t forget, you are the message.
Speaker 1:
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